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Success Story Podcast

How to Market a Presidential Campaign With Andrew Frawley, Andrew Yang’s CMO

By October 10, 2021July 17th, 2023No Comments

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About The Guest

Andrew Frawley joined Andrew Yang in his bid for president in December 2017 when, at the time, the operation was running out of Yang’s mother’s apartment as a team of only three. Frawley worked in a myriad of catch-all roles until he was entrusted to found and build the campaign’s marketing team from just himself to over a dozen. In his role as Director, Frawley created the well-popularized “MATH” hat, directed the campaign’s social media team which saw growth of 375,000%, developed the awarded “best in politics” merchandise, and raised tens of millions of dollars fueling the organization’s growth to 300+ staffers.

Andrew Frawley is a marketer and business builder by trade. Frawley has worked on a dozen startups (and now political operations) from Silicon Valley to New York City to Richmond, Virginia. He received a B.A. in Brand Management, and certificates of Venture Creation & Product Innovation from Virginia Commonwealth University in 2016. Frawley has been writing for his blog for the past six years and has contributed works to The Guardian, Inc, Huffington Post, Thrive Global, and LifeHack. His writing on the popular question and answer forum, Quora, has been viewed over two million times.


Talking Points

  • 10:58 — Self worth and career.
  • 15:19 — Getting started in marketing.
  • 25:05 — Introduction to Andrew Yang.
  • 35:31 — How to get on Joe Rogan.
  • 42:28 — The MATH hat.
  • 48:25 — Life as a marketer after a presidential campaign.
  • 57:06 — Marketing insights that transcend industry.
  • 1:02 — Using alternative media for marketing.

Show Links

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What is the Success Story Podcast?

On this podcast, you’ll find interviews, Q&A, keynote presentations & conversations on sales, marketing, business, startups and entrepreneurship.

The podcast is hosted by entrepreneur, business executive, author, educator & speaker, Scott D. Clary.

Scott will discuss some of the lessons he’s learned over his own career, as well as have candid interviews with execs, celebrities, notable figures and politicians. All who have achieved success through both wins and losses, to learn more about their life, their ideas and insights.

He sits down with leaders and mentors and unpacks their story to help pass those lessons onto others through both experiences and tactical strategy for business professionals, entrepreneurs and everyone in between.








Machine Generated Transcript


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Andrew Frawley, Scott D Clary


Scott D Clary  00:00

Welcome to success story, the most useful podcast in the world. I’m your host Scott D. Clary. The success story podcast is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network. The HubSpot Podcast Network has tons of great podcasts for business leaders, like the martec podcast, the martec podcast hosted by Benjamin Shapiro. Each week, he tells stories of world class marketers who use technology to create lasting success for their businesses and their careers. So if any of these topics sound interesting to you, here’s a little sample of what he speaks about, you’re gonna have to check out the show how science is changing advertising, how to set up a CRM, so you actually use it, private equity, his take on digital transformation, why big social is focused on newsletters, if any of these topics resonate with you, if they sound like you want to dive deeper and actually go into some of these topics. This is what the show is about. You should go listen to the martec podcast you can listen to the mark tech podcast anywhere you get your podcasts or if you want, you can of course listen to it on the HubSpot Podcast Network at network you’ll find the martec podcast there. today. My guest is Andrew Frawley. Andrew was the CMO for Andrew Yang during his bid for President in December of 2017 Andrew Frawley joined Andrew Yang, when at the time the operation was running out of Yang’s mother’s apartment as a team of only three. For all he worked in a myriad of catch all roles until he was entrusted to develop build strategize a campaigns marketing team from just himself to over a dozen a dozen individuals and his role as director. Frawley created the well popularized math hat so make America think harder directed the campaign social media team which saw a growth of 375,000% develop the awarded quote unquote best in politics merchandise and raised 10s of millions of dollars fueling the organization’s growth to over 300 staffers. Andrew Frawley is a marketer and business builder by trade. He’s worked on a dozen startups and now political operations from Silicon Valley to New York to Richmond, Virginia. He received a BA in brand management and certificate of venture creation and product innovation from Virginia Commonwealth University in 2016. He has been writing for his blog for the past six years and has been asked to contribute to the Guardian, Inc, Huffington Post Thrive global and life hack. His writing on popular questions and answers on Quora had been viewed over 2 million times. So we’re gonna break down his story, his origin story, how he got involved with Andrew Yang, some of the things you have to consider when you’re building out a marketing campaign for a potential president, where do we even start? How do you measure the effectiveness of some of these early stage marketing tactics, how he got Andrew Yang on Joe Rogan and how that changed the entire trajectory of the entire marketing campaign. Some of the things that he’s had to think through when marketing in the political arena, what type of marketing resonates with American voters? And also, how do you focus on fundraising versus generating awareness when you’re actually trying to make someone a household name, so a ton of marketing lessons. Also, there’s a ton of great stories from the Andrew Yang campaign. And he has definitely the inside scoop on what actually goes on behind the scenes and what is actually presented to the public when you are building out a potential presidential campaign or a presidential marketing campaign. So I hope you enjoy. This is Andrew Frawley, who was the CMO heading up all marketing for Andrew Yang during his bid for President in December of 2017.


Andrew Frawley  03:44

So yeah, my origin story starts in college, like I think, for many people, at least, where they’re charting their way. You know, I spent my first few years doing pretty much nothing productive. And eventually, at some point, near the middle to end of my sophomore year, I just had this sort of great desire to like, not just burn out and just flail into nowhere land, after college. And so I started wanting to figure out what I was going to do. And I came with this big aspiration to change the world, which, you know, I didn’t know what that meant at the time. I just wanted to change the world because it sounded, sounded great. Got all into Steve Jobs and really, really started like, getting pretty obsessed with that guy. Wanted to get into startups and do all those things and go I’m in college I have, you know, I’m studying marketing. You know, I don’t really have anything going for me. I mean, I’m at Virginia Commonwealth University. My grades are like a 2.5 GPA. I mean, really not not thriving at all. So I started like working super hard, you know, start getting dean’s list. I jumped into a bunch of certificate programs and things like that where I’m studying venture creation, entrepreneurship, product innovation, I do all sorts of interesting things. Long story short, I, you know, need to figure out what I’m gonna go after college for, you know, startups and things like that. One of the places that I’ve sort of latched on to was this organization called Venture for America, which, as some may know, was founded by Andrew Yang. And the whole thing was like, it was an easy, like, ramp into entrepreneurship, you got to mentor under people, your job security, while working in a start up, the two are sort of a contradiction. And I really became obsessed with it, put my heart and soul into applying and trying to get into this organization. And somehow I got an interview because I really, I guess, my, my application just showed my heart and soul so much. Before the interview a few friends of mine, we end up driving to New York City to go to the Venture for America headquarters. You know, we wanted to like try and push your hand and show that we were motivated. We’re in the city, you know, battle trick. So we stopped by the headquarters, and we happen to while we’re there, we’re just chatting it up with the recruiter, you know, I’m super nervous. I feel like an imposter. And like two years ago, I was doing, you know, keg stands and stuff. Or actually, at that point, it was like a year ago. And at some point, Andrew Yang walks in the room, and I’m like, Oh, my gosh, I you know, I really, it’s like seeing your idol. I mean, at that point in time, he was pretty much a nobody in society. But I really idealize this organization. Well, both good and bad luck happens. He steps out of the room. But right after he steps out of the room, right, I build up the courage to say something. And I think the recruiter for allowing us apply ease to visit. You know, their headquarters, and obviously, everyone’s like, What the hell is and apply? And then someone’s like, you mean applicant? And like? Yes. And obviously, that’s just like, one of the like, the worst days of my life. They might be in front of Andrew Yang. Well, that’s that was the good luck of the situation is he had just stepped out. And after the meeting, you know, a friend of mine is walking in the street. He’s like, Yo, don’t worry, man. Like, at least Andrew Yang, like, didn’t hear you say that, because then you definitely wouldn’t have gotten in. Well, long story short, I get denied. And I’m crushed. And I write some, like, long, sad story on my blog. But I gain a lot of inspiration from Steve Jobs, because you know, that guy’s just never gave up in his career and seeing with Elon Musk I was, you know, those guys are popular then. But, you know, Elon Musk was much less popular than he is now. So I like to think I was ahead of the curve, but really obsessed with those guys. And I took inspiration from their tenacity, and just packed my car and just drove to California. I couldn’t get a job out there. Because at that point, I had a 3.0 out of VCU marketing degree, no one cared who I was. So I couldn’t get a job. And if you can’t get a job, you can’t get a house in San Francisco, because the rent default rate is so high. So I had $6,000 in savings, and I just packed my car and I just said, you know, fuck it. I just, I just drove over there. I really had no or no idea where I was gonna stay. I was like, I guess I’ll just like stay in Airbnb for a few nights. I don’t know, eventually, around Colorado, a friend of mine text me and he’s like, Hey, there’s this thing out there called hacker houses, you should live in one. And I love the idea because one of the main reasons I was driving to San Francisco was under this advice that I had heard on a Tim Ferriss podcast, no idea who said it, they were basically like, you know, whatever you’re doing after college, the number one thing you should be optimizing for is putting you’re surrounding yourself with just the smartest people that you possibly can surround yourself with. And I’m like, well, San Francisco is a good place to start, at least if you’re trying to do startups. So I applied to this hacker house, I cite all these weird side projects I’ve been doing in college as proof that I am, you know, a motivated person. They accept me. And I show up to San Francisco, and I’m living in a bunk pit, the the top bunk have a 10 by 10. Room, and a hacker house with 50 people. And that was quite a year. Long story short, I end up getting a job out there. I’ve a big existential crisis. I end up realizing that, you know, I wanted to change the world. But ultimately, I came to realize that like, I was just like, insecure and changing the world was like, This is great, like safety blanket that made me feel like I was powerful and strong. Like, if you can change the world, I mean, jeez, like, are you special. So that was like a very educational experience for me. Nine months of just like, basically being depressed and sad. And now there are two things that were going on this time. I’m trying to figure out what I’m gonna do with my life because I became existential and my whole dream to change the world no longer made sense. And at the same time, I’m living in the Takkar house where I have all these friends who are like 80% software engineers, like super hardcore techies. The great folklore of the house is that the talk booter and founder of Aetherium supposedly stayed there for are weak. That’s the claim to fame. Not sure if it’s true. So everyone, they’re super techy, and a bunch of my friends in the house, we’re talking about artificial intelligence. And they’re like, you know, the gray goo is gonna take over the world. And we’re all going to turn into paperclips. If you know those sort of, as you know, there’s worrisome tales of AI. And no, I think they’re right. I’m like, yeah, that’s pretty concerning. But what I see happening is that, before they turn us into paperclips, we’re gonna, they’re gonna take all of our jobs, and then everyone’s going to get very sad and depressed, because I’m not spending all my time thinking about mental health. And I’m like, wow, you know, jobs are obviously a very key part of people’s, you know, purpose in life, which is, you know, one of the great drivers of quality of life self worth. Yeah.


Scott D Clary  10:55

So it’s your self worth is very tied to it. Your, your job.


Andrew Frawley  10:58

Yeah, I mean, and, and, you know, I believe people can have a lot of worth without jobs and things like that. But, you know, when you’ve grown up in a world where they tell you that your worth is your, your income and your job, unless you’re like, very esoteric, and bohemian, which I sort of am. But that’s like a hard concept to like, adopt, especially after, you know, young adulthood. So I get all into mental health, and I’m all about the robots. I’m really concerned about it. And I start getting into psychology and philosophy and economics, because I’m trying to find the big new system to deal with this joblessness, that seems like it may be coming down the pike. And I’m on a trip to New York City. In June 2017, I’d actually networked my way into meeting with Gary Vaynerchuk, because I was obsessed with him. And this was one of the most pivotal life experiences for me, because I had the chance to have a private meeting with Gary Vaynerchuk. Five minutes long, just me I’d spent three years networking to this guy. I, the way I landed, the meeting, eventually was that he posted on his Instagram that he was decorating a new room and his office seemed after some band theme, like quiet riot or something, and I never heard of them. But I decided to DM him and I’m like, Hey, I have a quiet, quiet WRITE RECORD. And he’s like, okay, like, send it on over. And so I go on eBay, and I buy a quiet WRITE RECORD. And then I send it to him. And I’m like, okay, great. I have it in. And I cashed that in two years later, I’m like, Hey, man, I’d love to come by and see this quite right record, I get the meeting. And I have this choice where I’m like, Okay, I’m visiting your city, I have this awesome meeting with Gary Vaynerchuk. And I know my friend, who’s also visiting New York City with me at the same time we were visiting for a conference. I know, this guy would love. He loves Gary Vaynerchuk. And I know Gary doesn’t give a shit about this. He’s just doing it. Just, you know, whatever, because that’s what he does. And I’m like, should I invite him? Or should I just like, be a glutton and take in just every minute, every second of this. But through my whole existential crisis, San Francisco, I become much more like empathetic, and you know, caring and compassionate, I guess. And I decide, you know, share the moment just, you know, be inclusive, giving person just for the sake of giving. So I invite my friends, and he’s like, Hey, I actually have a meeting at the same time with Andrew Yang. But we can move that back, because who cares? And we can go to Gary Vaynerchuk together, and then you can just join me for my meeting with Andrew Yang, because it’s not a big deal. Like, sure, whatever. Like, who cares about that guy? So we go to Gary Vaynerchuk an awesome time. And we go to Andrew Yang. And you know, he’s, this is summer 2017. And he’s, you know, he’s like, Yeah, I’m going to be leaving Venture for America. We’re just chatting hanging out. And you start talking about AI and robots, and the future of labor. And I’m freaking out. I mean, I really have textbooks in my dad, I pull them out. You know, I’m like, economic textbooks that, you know, I admittedly only barely understood the time. I’m like, What’s the system, man, the robots are coming. And so we connect a ton. He says he has some big project coming up. We really hit it off. I mean, just like BFFs immediately, I email him afterwards. I’m just, you know, Hey, man, whatever you’re doing, I’d love to help out. That’s when he tells me, you know, running for president on universal basic income if you’re into that, like you should join. I don’t even know what that means. I pretty much hated politics growing up. I grew up in DC, where the stench is very real and took me three months to decide. I had a few phone calls with him to define what it means to like help out. He basically says I’m going to be the launching the marketing team and Eventually you say yes, obviously, that’s why I’m here. And I end up officially joining in December 2017. Second person, staff, it’s me, him. And one other person working out of his motor department as we launched the campaign, and then you know, that whole story begins. Have you ever done


Scott D Clary  15:19

marketing up until this point? Oh, no, any any sort of formal mark. So I’ve done that little thing.


Andrew Frawley  15:28

So when I was in San Francisco, I was running marketing for a software startup. But admittedly, it was kind of like a joke. I mean, God bless the place. But the whole team was remote, like everyone, like a lot of people were hired were out of, like, the Ukraine. And so it’s just a team of law. And it was just me. So this is where I’d actually been writing a book about my experience on the campaign. And the title of it was imposter, revolutionary, because Andrew Yang, and I traveled one on one for the first nine months of the campaign. And he always used to sit in the car and be like, Man, put revolutionaries, we are like, look at us, just roaming the country, like taken on like this big challenge. And I always felt like an imposter. Because, you know, I gotten rejected from his organization before. And I don’t know if he knew that. And, and then I also would sit there and think, like, I don’t know anything about politics. And truly, I’ve only done been full time employed in a marketing place for nine months before this. And even there, it was just a one man operation. It’s so it’s, it’s one of those things where it’s like, everyone does one man operation marketing. You know, it’s kind of like a commodity at this point. Like everyone’s personal brand is like their own little like one hand marketing operation. They all use CO schedule and, you know, buffer and HootSuite and they’ve, everyone’s pretty much uses them. So it’s like what I really bring here.


Scott D Clary  16:58

So so how did you see obviously incredible imposter syndrome. But I would say that, and I don’t know the entire backstory of how he funded and how he grew and and how he became such a prominent name in American politics. And obviously, I know how the story ends. He didn’t he didn’t get to where he wanted to be. But I mean, he made quite a run and quite a name for himself. So what were some of the first things that you took on to market? Andrew Yang?


Andrew Frawley  17:31

Yeah. Well, it was, um, yeah, I mean, it was, it was a really interesting experience. We would sit in his mother’s living room, who was out of the country at the time, so she wasn’t also there with us. And it was completely surreal that this campaign would ever be anything. You know, he has no business running for president, frankly. And we’re just sitting there. And you know, I’m looking at the employee number one Wuhan, and we’re building a website. And we’re basically just copying Bernie Sanders’s website. You know, that that idea? Steal Like an Artist by Austin Kleon. I don’t know if that’s how you say his last name. We we live that completely. I mean, that was that was our motto, basically, the first year. So we built up the website. I mean, my first tasks were just ridiculous. I mean, he didn’t even have good photos of himself. So I spent a ton of time just trying to find a photo of him that wasn’t like 700 pixels. I mean, I, I was fighting like Wikipedia to list him as a candidate. Like all sorts of silly things. The rough goal that we had, though, was like, Okay, we’re launching for President. We have a lot of time we’re launching pretty early. It was a very startup mentality, which was, you know, we’re going to try and just launch early iterate, based on like, what feedback we’re getting from the market. Our loose expectations were that Asian Americans would care about him. Ubi supporters would care about the techies would care about him. And young, disenchanted voters would care about him. In the long run that played out, but early on, no one cared, no. And just we announced, like February 9, or 10th, or something. February 2018. And we had set written goals on our whiteboard that were like, How much money do you think we’re gonna raise and like the first, I think it was week or month. And we said, like 350 to 500,000. And we didn’t raise that for the first year. We ran for president. I mean, we just got owned. The actual development of the strategy was, I mean, at first we thought people would care. So then once that thesis was disproven, like we had to change things up like I had thought early on, all I had to do is email the reporters. Hey, look at this guy, and they’d be like, Wow, he’s interesting. He’s smart. We’re gonna talk about him. And then that didn’t happen. So then the strategy changed. It was like, Okay, so let’s try and get attention. So we started doing all sorts of weird things like we did our first UBI giveaway in New Hampshire and Iowa in 2018. Like, we went to the States, and we’re like, Hey, we’re gonna do a giveaway. One family will get $1,000 A month from Andrew Yang himself. But ultimately, still, no one cared. We really thought we were gonna break that one open with that. But nobody cared. Our budget at this time was about $30,000 a month. We were really, really making nothing. And he wasn’t really funding it. I mean, he put in about 50,000 at the outset to fund us in like December, before we launched, but truly the campaign was funded by people. I’ll be it for 2018, it was like $30,000 a month. The big break breakers that we had, were essentially alternative media. One person on that team credits me for pushing us towards this. I know I advocated for it a lot. But I don’t know if I was like, really the number one, you know, originator of it. But podcasts were pretty much how we enjoyed getting became a thing. The first breakthrough was in 2018, with Sam Harris, who just happen to find his book, followed Andrew Yang on Twitter. Andrew Yang is like, Hey, this guy with a million followers followed me. He DM Sam Harris and says like, Hey, good to meet you. He says he likes his book invites him on the podcast. I I love Sam Harris at the time, I still do actually. I’d even come see me in person that that spring. So one day, I just get an email from Sam Harris in my inbox saying, you know, hey, hey, Andrew Yang, want to come on my podcast, I freak out. And that becomes like the biggest event for us. We’re raising $60,000 a month. And after that, everything became an obsession about your Rogen. Because that was like the next big, you know, consolidation of, let’s say disenfranchised voters and things like that. But that’s like the rough schematic of 2018. But I can dig into like more interesting details. Or if you have any,


Scott D Clary  22:24

no, no, I want it I want to dig and this is interesting, because I want to I want to figure out how you took this this because Andrew Yang was the brand and you took it from the you didn’t have classical marketing training really. And you you build something with it. Very, very, like a very, like it’s I mean, very impressive. So let’s let’s go let’s dig in more like what what else? What else do you got? So you did alternative media? You got Yeah, podcasts that Sam Harris. So you’re doubling down?


Andrew Frawley  22:51

Go ahead. Yeah, so 2018 was a very spiritual moment for me. Where I was really doing a lot of soul searching because I thought I’d always thought that I was exceptional at marketing. Like I grew up on the internet, you know, I was always doing memes and like, viral things when I was like 13 and 14, I played World of Warcraft. And so I just always felt like I knew this, this whole, you know, arena. But I was really struggling to have him grow. And I really believe that Andrew Yang was an exceptional product. And that was like one of my most educational experiences because in the long term, he was an exceptional product. And yet, I was sitting there doing everything that like the growth hackers of the era were doing and like nothing was working. You know, I was doing outreach to journalists, I big media blast. I mean, I was I was tracking, you know, media, who were talking about the presidential race, and I was sliding their, you know, emails. You know, on Instagram, I was commenting on other people’s posts responding to people responding on the DMS doing follow unfollow, I mean, I was doing everything that you could imagine. And, you know, we were growing at like, 50 followers a week. You know, I’m on Facebook. Yes, slow. And on Facebook, you know, I’m inviting friends of friends. I mean, on Instagram, I’m connecting the contacts of people’s phones, like I would go to lunch with a friend and say, Hey, can I get your phone? I would log into our Instagram, and then invite their contacts to like his, I mean, I was like, really scrapping it. And we just weren’t going anywhere in our content. You know, I was doing all the shareable things, you know, the headlines and you know, optimizing the videos and putting a face in the right I mean, I was like, doing everything timing of posting. Nothing was growing us for for shit. You know, I was still you know, I love Ryan holidays book. Trust me. I’m lying. So I was pretty much doing everything in that book. You’re trading up the chain with media. I was, you know, I mean, I was literally doing everything that you could think of. I mean, I even had I used the service here. leak, which basically sends views to articles. And so the on the rare chance there’d be an article about Andrew Yang, I would send like 30,000 basically spam, spam views to the articles that hoping that the editors would see the Andrew Yang sales. I mean, I was doing all the things and nothing was working. The biggest breakthrough was that right around the time that Sam Harris was happening. I started a Facebook group and I was really, really big on the Facebook group. I mean, the things that I was touting, at this time during the campaign was LinkedIn, Quora, podcasts, and Facebook groups. LinkedIn and Quora, we never really got going, but I was advocating for them. I mean, I don’t even know if they would have succeeded. But those to me were the alternative media routes to actual growth. You know, I, I say this to people now, like Facebook and Instagram, you’re not, you’re not growing your, your, your audience on those platforms, unless you’re huge, like you’re maintaining your audience. And you’re essentially directing the narrative and the story to those who follow you. But those platforms are now like, the, the website of 2021. Like, they’re a storefront that people go and search for, unless you’re huge. So you have to like find new places to grow yourself. So I was all about the alternative media. Alternative Media also has the incentive, just for what it’s worth signing up alternative media has, has the baked in incentive where like these platforms want to grow. So what they actually end up doing is they incentivize creators to come to their platform by giving them like highly shareable content. So it spreads and are highly shareable algorithms. So that basically, they get discovered. I mean, if you look at Instagram, like, it’s pretty hard to actually see your content spreading. So tick tock, obviously, perfect example. I mean, literally, like you, you look at a video, it sends it to everyone, you know, I mean, it’s just like, that thing explodes. So, whatever side note on on alternative media and early early platforms, but um, so I pushed us into a Facebook group, my whole thesis was like, we don’t have a lot of supporters like what we want to do is put them all in the same place. So they just want


Scott D Clary  27:23

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Andrew Frawley  28:24

So others exist. And then they can like, pick up things to do. And I’ve come up with this analogy, which I call the house party analogy. Which is if you think about, you know, your movement, or you’re building a thing, a community, community, whatever it is, you have to sort of think about it like a house party. Because one of the interesting things that I did on our campaign was, I did not have to optimize for money or donations, pretty much until the middle of 2019. Because in my view, if you think about a house party warehouse party, that’s empty, like if you go to a house party, there’s nobody in it. And they’re like, at the front door. They’re like, Hey, it’s $10 to come in. You’re like for what? What do you charge? Like, you’re annoying, there’s nothing here, you have nothing to sell. I viewed as the same thing, because I always thought to myself, why does it seem like donating to Andrew Yang right now is such a waste of money. Because you know, he’s not going to do anything with it. I mean, when he’s an irrelevant guy, you’re just like, I’m just going to light my money on fire. People only donate is for politics, but people only donate when, like you have momentum and they think their money is going to make a difference. When you’re 80% out of first place Bill, you know, they think it’s just a waste of resources, which I mean, I don’t blame them. So that was my sort of thesis. So if you have a house party, having a Facebook group and a Reddit group, or just discord whatever a place to congregate your people is like, let’s say you have 10 people in your home. Okay. 10 People just wandering around your home. Still weird experience 10 people focused in your kitchen, very, very focused, tailored experience. And then the key about the Facebook group and why I had advocated the Facebook group over Reddit and things like that early on, was that you can control it a lot more. And I think that’s important. Same thing with House Party, which is like, if you have 10 people in your house, you can completely set the tone of the experience, which is important, because it essentially sets the direction for the rest of the night. You know, are you You know, just having white wine and sitting around chatting over, you know, some coffee table books, where are you, you know, whipping out the tequila and saying, you know, what’s go, everyone, you know, you very much set the tone. And so, in the Facebook group, I set it up just before the Sam Harris podcast by coincidence. And one of the things that I’ve done is, if you went to our Facebook page on Facebook, every single other candidate who ran for president and the whole entirety of the campaign, on their Facebook page, they use their Facebook page, they made the button, you know, go to the website and donate. I made ours, join our Facebook group. And I swear, I swear I finessed them so hard. Because if you came to our Facebook group, you have to answer questions, like what’s your email? How are you finding us all these things that ended up becoming a super, super effective way to gather data on like how we were growing at the time. And I we captured 10s of 1000s of emails throughout the time of the campaign. So people join the Facebook group. And then in that Facebook group, Sam Harris blows up. And then all of a sudden, we have like 500 people in this Facebook group, we have a real thing. And that was essentially the beginning of the Yang gang, because I then went to a Facebook group every single day. And I set the culture for what it means to be part of the Yang gang. And so I would go in there and I would give people daily tasks, I would give the whole group I’d be like today, this journalist left Andrew Yang off his list of 2020 contenders. Here’s his email, let him know, let him know what you think about that


Scott D Clary  32:04

. He mobilize the community in a big way.


Andrew Frawley  32:07

Yeah. And so that was that became essentially, you know, I tell people I’m like, Well, I think the inevitable result is that Andrew Yang supporters would have been the online mobilize, mobilize army that they were either way, but I also can’t help the coincidence, can’t help recognize coincidence, which was that for six months, until, from that point until the Joe Rogan podcast, I was growing this Facebook group, and then eventually a discord. And a Reddit group that had explicit activities had a spreadsheet that I’d made of like directed communities, and places to go and just like dominate. And then so throughout the entire fall, I was essentially just curating this community, I would bring in Andrew Yang’s own personal Facebook, he would let me log on there. And then I would make a post from him, which was like, Hello, everyone, here’s like the three activities of the fall. And it would be create, I think it was create, distribute, and something else, which was just these directives over and over day after day. And then we hired community leaders to run the groups expand the groups, and it just sort of started to blow up. we incentivize mean creation. I mean, I, I gave these people that Dropbox folder of funny photos of Yang like looking weird that I’ve taken. And I was like, here, like, make these into weird memes of him. So we were completely fueling this fire of like, online mobilization, just take over the web. Because if you actually think about it, that goes back to the you know, the the Ryan Holiday, sort of trading up the chain idea, which is like, start really small, and then build your way up in the smallest is forums. I mean, I had, I had a Google alert, tracking every forum that talked about him on the internet. And then I would just funnel that to this Facebook group. And I’d say, hey, go go live in this community and talk about him some more. So all of this was going on. That was an activity one entering the fall. The other thing that I had realized was that I basically wasn’t going to break into Yang out, I tried all of my moves. And so what my strategy eventually became was, I’m going to prepare us for the day he does break out. And so I spent a lot of time actually building out our online funnels, our tracking our infrastructure, you know, Google ads, all those things, making our website stronger. And then purely just optimizing for Super exponential opportunities, which is, effectively the only thing we really cared about was getting on Joe Rogan. Which eventually came to in he went on in February 20 2019. But that actually came through Sam Harris, who just texted Joe Rogan was like, Hey, you should have this guy on. He said, Yes,


Scott D Clary  34:59

that was that. Was that that’s the that’s the strategy. That’s a secret.


Andrew Frawley  35:02

We have actually asked Sam Harris to do that before. But he, I don’t know if he asked or I don’t know what happened. But that’s that’s how it happened. I mean, I’d email Jim Rogan, obviously I was bombarding him I was sending our community to just blow up this guy’s channels for months. So I don’t know what the real tipping point was. But as far as we know, for sure what happened, it was a Sam Harris text message to Joe Rogan. Man to you know, you really is. Yeah. And then he goes on Joe Rogan. And that’s when things just go just totally off the rails, we were still spending or raising about, you know, 25 $30,000 a month, and then we go on Joe Rogan. And we start raising $40,000 a day. So entering Joe Rogan, we were a team of like, seven, I think. And then that was February 2019. And then September 2019, we were 300 people. If we we just entered this totally insane scaling mode. He ends up becoming like the third person to qualify for the debates. Nobody knows who he is. I mean, it’s just the spring was the spring was like that time in life where you just feel like you’re the coolest person to like at the party. Like the media was obsessed with him. They had no idea what he was or what was going on. The downside was that the alt right became obsessed with him, which was super strange. That was super weird. Effectively what happened was in March


Scott D Clary  36:43

I was gonna say You better tell me what you better tell me what happened. You can just leave it that super weird. I want to I want to know intricate details of the weirdest shit that you saw.


Andrew Frawley  36:52

Well, it was really weird because in March 2019, Andrew Yang blows up on the internet through Joe Rogan. And I don’t know what happened. But I think some people in the Yang gang just went into 4chan, and they started posting about Yang, like, they were just at this point, I wasn’t even directing the Yang gang. Really. I mean, they were, it was just like this very autonomous animal. But still living by sort of like the directional values, which was cool, but so they got unfortunately, I guess just plaster Yang, the internet, and 4chan. It was just so weird. 4chan, like, fell in love with him. Because Yang was organization organization Venture for America was covered a lot of Midwestern cities, and states spent a lot of time in like, essentially, the Midwest. And we had done some work out there, you know, working with truck drivers and stuff, trying to talk about automated, you know, vehicles. And he had once shared a tweet from the New York Times talking about white deaths, which is, you know, I think that life expectancy, life, life expectancy of white Americans has gone down, like three years in a row or four years in a row or something.


Scott D Clary  38:11

So it was some of these activities that it gained some interest from All right, yeah. Okay. And so not not intentional, but just like these, these individual activities over the course of a period of time, all of a sudden, they’re looking at this person, like, Who is this guy, you’re


Andrew Frawley  38:24

like, hey, it’s a Democrat, that cares about white people was an explicit comment that I had found on 4chan, which is, I mean, I’m not even gonna comment on that. That’s just like a whole thing. But for whatever reason, they become obsessed with him. And, and that was just super weird, because we’re like riding this high of exploding and then all of a sudden, we’re like, you know, we have these, like, alt right people showing up at our rallies, and, you know, then you’re like, ah, like, fuck shit. Goddamnit Yeah, it’s just like, weird. And then they started. The weird thing is a lot of people on 4chan didn’t think it was possible that 4chan people would like Andrew Yang, and I mean, I sort of agree with them, but so then they thought that we were faking it. So then, you had half of 4chan that loved Andrew Yang, and then have the 14 that thought all the love was like fake bots, that our team of like five was producing. And so then they started attacking us. They started like, Doxxing people on our staff, like they would get our phone calls, or phone numbers and call us. I mean, it like, you know, threatened us. I mean, there were some death threats. And, you know, we’re gonna, I mean, it’s just got super weird and I was like, wow, we are. We are in politics. Now. Eventually, it sort of died off. Just because Andrew Yang just kept saying, you know, basically, like, you know, I don’t want your support, leave me alone. And then, you know, then we just rode the wave. That’s around the time I came up with the idea for the math hat, which was pretty The coolest thing I’ve done so far in my career, we were actually filming with Andrew Yang in the studio, making some ads for Facebook, and he had his, you know, slogan that he would always say, which is, you know, the opposite of Donald Trump is an Asian guy who likes math. And he finished that line. Yeah, I actually, I actually never loved that slogan. I wrote about that on my website, which was, you know, technically, wouldn’t it at the minimum be like, an Asian woman? Or, like, you know, if you want to get too esoteric, like, you’re the opposite of Donald Trump is like a nonliving rock or an empty, like, matter list. orb. I mean, you know, how far are we going here? So, you know, I never thought it really made that much sense. But I mean, he loved it said all the time. And he said, that line at the end of the ad, and then he just was sitting there, and he goes, math, math, math, I love math. And then it just clicked in my head. I said, Oh, my God, what if we, like, I was like, I forget exactly how I said it. But I said, Oh, my God, imagine if we had rallies. And we had people holding up signs that said, math. Imagine like, I just thought it was the funniest thing ever. Just like total satire, and trolling, you know, you have all these candidates, you know, with hope. And you know, all their ridiculous slogans and stuff that just feel like empty platitudes. And then I just imagined this guy just like roaming around America with just signs that said, math. It just was the greatest thing ever. But Yang loved it. Zach Romine, our campaign manager loved it. And we just loved it, we were like, That’s the perfect slogan. It represents what he stands for, which is just, you know, by the numbers, you know, he’s a candidate who’s not here to just, you know, sort of charade you or, you know, playing the circus, like, he’s just like, by the numbers, solve the problems like objective, like, do the work. That’s sort of what it stood for. And then I made the math hat. And we sold. I took a lot of inspiration for our merchandise from streetwear, and like supreme and all that stuff. And so our first sale of the math hat, we only sold 500. And they have like a little tag in it that says it’s like, the original 500 or something. And those things,


Scott D Clary  42:28

you did a custom drop on the mafia, I didn’t realize that.


Andrew Frawley  42:30

And we sold 522 minutes and and then over the course, the campaign, we sold, about 300,000 of the hats. And then I just kept going back to the custom drops. We did one that was like a marijuana themed bath had it was like green. And we did all sorts of things. I mean, some of them we were selling for, like 100 $100. I mean, we were just, I was really playing up, you know, the same exact ideologies of streetwear, just exorbitant prices purely for the hype. Yeah, and then it was crazy. And then at that point, he had broken out. And he was just getting invited on everything. I mean, he went on cold air, he did all sorts of things. And we got up to like, 4%, and polling, but we sort of stalled there for a few months. And in politics, that’s like a really long time, like you need especially when you’re down so so far, you need to grow pretty exponentially. So around September, we started hiring a bunch of like, more traditional political people that we had had the sort of spiritual crisis, which is do we keep trying to be the same fun happy go lucky, troll kind of candidate? And hope that maybe we’re stalling? Because whatever? Or maybe do we change our strategy? And the other challenge is there’s there’s good slogans for for each of those, you know, our business axioms, you know, what, Got You Here Won’t Get You There. But at the same time, you can stop and look at Trump and you’re like, well, that guy was literally just a giant, you know, man, what’s the right word that’s both accurate and appropriate for a podcast. A troll will just say troll. I was a big troll from start to finish, and change anything and it got a guy got reelected, not changing. So, you know, there’s no right answer. We tried to professionalize. And so in the fall, we stopped doing as much fun stuff, you know, you saw ying yang, like take off the hat, do all sorts of things. And yeah, it didn’t really work and then we produce a stall to four or 5% and then we lost.


Scott D Clary  44:51

The most anticlimactic can do a story you just totally out. You just like drop the mic. I’m done this. That’s it. That’s it. In all seriousness, I think you are. I think you’re under underselling how impressive the stuff that you did was coming from where you came from? Oh, yeah.


Andrew Frawley  45:09

I mean, it, it was pretty wild. I mean, we had pretty much no business being like, fifth in line. Given where we came from, I truly do think he would have been exceptional president. I mean, that he ran for mayor and I was not really involved in that. I think he would have been exceptional Mayor too. But I, I’m pretty disenchanted with politics right now. I mean, I pretty much always was, but I, you know, the lack of nuance in political discourse is very discouraging, really, you know, makes it difficult to feel like anything productive will ever happen. Because everything is so nuanced. You know, I’ve just everything I’ve just everyone’s perspective, what people say it’s so context, relevant. I mean,



and then pause, but it spun out of content, rethink


Andrew Frawley  46:05

driving, just intentionally cutting out the context. I mean, it’s really discouraging. I mean, the way he was covered in the mayoral race was, was unbelievable. I mean, it. The stuff that I’d read was surreal. I mean, it was really surreal. And it’s weird. Knowing someone effectively, famous, so intimately. I mean, I, you know, his whole family, his mom, I birthday dinners with his children. And it’s just really weird. I mean, obviously, I don’t think he’s, you know, I think he’s has all these exceptional traits and things like that. And it’s just, it’s just strange, because it has changed a lot of how I look at media coverage. I’m not like, you know, some a&r guy who’s like, you know, the media’s. You’re totally terrible, but it has changed a lot. You know, a lot of times


Scott D Clary  47:06

I saw I’ve seen you’ve, you’ve lived behind the curtain?


Andrew Frawley  47:10

Yeah, like, I mean, I was in the room for things that I saw that were written about. And I was like, wow, that is, that is an interesting portrayal of like that event. I mean, even Business Insider wrote this article about Yang. I think maybe, probably in like, February of this year, they write this long article about him. And they are saying that the campaign had this big bro culture and all this, like terrible stuff. And I read the article. And I’m like, wait a second. They’re citing, like 10 people here. But I know, for a fact that out of these, like 10 instances, like seven of those are the same person. I know, that’s the same like I was there. I know the only person who’s saying that, anyways, we ended up getting a whole thing with their editorial board. And if you go and look at the article, I mean, it’s behind a paywall. So, way to go Business Insider, but they have like a three, three paragraph corrections added to the article, because they were like, Yeah, we. And they say it explicitly, we made it sound like we had way more sources than we had. I mean, they had pictures in the article where I was like, I have text messages receiving that photo from the person who took it. Like, I like, I was literally like, I was there for all those things. So it’s just very strange, very strange, but


Scott D Clary  48:38

as a marketer, like you still have so now that you know that now that you know that, are you. Like, I’m just I’m, I guess I’m more curious where your aspirations are focused on going forward, because you had an incredible run, you did things that most marketers will never be able to do in their career or have the exposure or the the impact that some marketers will ever have in their career. And then you’ve you’ve, you know, written the highs, seen the lows seen the worst of it. So where does that leave you as a marketer? Is that something that because are you going back into working with gang? Are you doing your own thing? What’s what’s next after


Andrew Frawley  49:18

this, of when the campaign ended, actually, one of the major reasons I wanted to, like move on for, you know, the short term, I would I could see myself working with him again, but I wanted to have some separation, sort of like off on my own, because when I joined the campaign, I was 23. Like, when I ended I was 27. And when you’re 23 versus 27, like anyone who’s 27 would know, you change pretty dramatically. Career wise, you know, that’s your first five years like, it’s like your first five years, you know, walking, you know, you really gain a lot of like acuity. So wanted to sort of go out and just sort of venture off on my own and sort of like, I guess, fly my wings as an adult. As far as marketing, I mean, let me think. So. One of the things that I’ll say, I mean, this doesn’t directly answer the question, but it does loop into it was very humbling. It’s like one of the things I wish I could just take the experience out of my brain and just like give it to people, because the context I gained, and the self awareness as like what it really takes to blow something up, or to just do anything at a mega scale was just so life changing because for the first year, I had like very, I was very self conscious about my marketing because I was like, not growing or business. I was like, I we have an exceptional product and we’re not growing. I mean, whose fault is it? It’s mine. Um,


Scott D Clary  50:53

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Andrew Frawley  53:06

And then he blows up like we get our big sort of moment. And then I was doing my same marketing stuff in 2019. But with an audience, and it was just crushing the game. I mean, our merchandise, I designed every single piece of our Merchandise Manager store, all the drops all the marketing around it, like Yang wearing a math hat was not an accident was to push the brand. And our merchandise was 30% of our revenue. And for a normal political campaign. It’s like 5%, like, just blew it out of the water. I mean, there’s multiple articles online, citing our merchandise says like, you know, the best of the entire political cycle. And I’m a guy who literally have never didn’t know shit about politics until so. It’s very educational. And so the one thing that I’ll say to anyone trying to do anything is like, if you want to blow up have exponential is like your product must absolutely be exceptional. Because what I learned was like, even with an exceptional product that became this, like little mini political sensation. We spent like a year and a half in total obscurity a year and a half 30k a month. I mean, we were literally pushing credit card debt to pay our bills some months. And that is with a guy who became a sensation and was like, you know, glue to people’s eyes. If your product is anything short of like exceptional. If you think about any of the other 25 candidates who ran for president do like no one remembers. So I just think that’s like really helpful context. It’s like really what it takes like exceptional products and years of toiling are like in your future if you’re trying to you know break something out. If you have an exceptional product if you don’t have to find a way to get an exceptional product. So I that was like my biggest marketing Less than just period. So I put that out there because I think it’s great. As far as marketing for me, I mean, I’m trying to transition out of marketing, honestly. But for probably the next six months to a year, I’m probably going to get involved in the next political cycle. Just in a light capacity, just because it is kind of fun. I mean, when you know, shit so well. Like, I’ve had, like, a lot of people reach out to me this year to, you know, just ask questions on how to set up their campaigns and stuff. And I mean, I’m charging $200 an hour. I mean, people are just giving me like, real money. And I just love it. And so I’m like, Okay, well, why would I completely step away from this? But so yeah, I mean, for the next like, year and a half, I’ll do consulting for that sort of stuff in a light capacity. It is fun. I’m hoping to probably do some consulting in the music industry. I love music. I mean, I was inspired by the music industry. So that’s just like a fun thing. But big, big picture for my career. I mean, I’m trying to transition out of marketing full time to, like mental health advocacy, that was obviously my original mission. I’m ultimately trying to, I’m trying to solve a certain problem, which is mental health, how that happens, unknown. I mean, I have a lot of ideas. I’m currently in a research phase, trying to figure out what direction that is. I mean, it could be me, working under someone who has do who’s doing something exceptional. It could be launching my own nonprofit, it could be launching a private business. I’m literally just in the phase of like, reading psychology textbooks and talking to professors and stuff, trying to figure out the best way to solve the exact like sliver of the, you know, let’s say, crisis that I care about the most. And then I’m going to evaluate, you know, highest leverage point to do that. So, if that answers the question of both sort of, like marketing and doing,


Scott D Clary  57:02

because what, when, when you think of when you think of one, and now that you know how to grow something, I’m sure that whatever you’re going to take on, now you have a way to take it to market to so that’s always useful. skill that what is one marketing, lesson, insight that transcends industry?


Andrew Frawley  57:28

transcends industry? Well, product? Yeah, I think. I think the one I said transcends industry for sure.


Scott D Clary  57:37

I’m the product focus. So having an incredible product,


Andrew Frawley  57:40

I think, I mean, I just think that’s like, the What about


Scott D Clary  57:45

community got one? That’s what I wanted to unpack. He did it? Well, um,


Andrew Frawley  57:50

yeah. I mean, I definitely think community transcends, you know, industry. I mean, I really think everything I had said about how we built our community is pretty much what other people should be doing. To me, I say this to friends, I think marketing today is harder than it has literally ever been. Because I have a little. So this is the way I look at it, there’s you essentially have like four ways. Well, technically, there’s five. Well, here’s the biggest insight that I gained from the campaign. If you’re designing a marketing plan, like the first question to ask yourself is like, do I have credibility? Or like clout, or some sort of influence in this industry? And pretty much for everyone? The answer is no, like, unless you’re Andrew Yang now, or Joe Biden, or, I don’t know, Bobby, hundreds, that’s a random street where artists, but like, those people have credibility, like, they already have sort of like a reputation of brand. So they can cross industries, they can jump into the more traditional social channels and marketing channels and actually have success, like Bobby hundreds probably actually grows his Instagram on Instagram, because He’s big enough that people share stuff. He gets added to, you know, the discover page, you know, things like that happen when you’re big. When you’re small and have essentially no credibility. You have to find a way to get credibility that retrospectively, to me was like the central task that we were trying to figure out on the campaign. And one of those ways to get credibility is having a community and for us on a campaign we had obviously no credibility, Yang was like, had literally nothing I mean, just like not even super rich, like just just a guy. And so your task to grow becomes very challenging. You pretty much have four marketing channels for options. So you have stunts watching, let’s start with number one. You have legacy media, which is like New York Times. You know, Washington Post Fox News. If you have no credibility, though, like, you’re probably not getting on there to begin with, um, Yang got on there a few times early on in like 2018. And I swear to you, like, five people on our website, I mean, he would go on Fox News Live with Stuart Varney, you know, 10 people on our website. I mean, really, when you don’t matter, it just no one cares. They’re like, Oh, who is that? People don’t even look at the TV. So your second option is stunts, which is, you know what it sounds like it’s flapping your hands in the air. It’s doing crazy things. And ultimately, I realized, they don’t really help or matter. You know, Andrew Yang, at the peak of his pipe, goes on the debate stage in July 2019. And he says, I’m giving away, you know, for a year, September, whatever, I’m giving away $120,000 to 10 Americans, each person gets $1,000 a month, or whatever the numbers are, right? He said, he’s giving away a bunch of money to 10 Americans. Our website blew up and we had 100. God, what was it 150,000 people on our website at one time. We have like a million signups on our website in 24 hours. And I swear to you like 95% of those people unsubscribed in, like a week. I mean, it was like no hesitation. So I learned a lot about stunts, we were truly the stunt campaign, like trust me, like we did all scence just Googling engineering stunts, I’m sure you’ll find a list somewhere, they really didn’t help. Like, they just they just don’t. I mean, it seems like it’s going to be good, but it just doesn’t. Unless you can truly find a way to make it last long. It really was really just up and down. And it was like a total waste of effort. Your third option is paid ads, which again, if you don’t have credibility, you really probably don’t even have money to begin with. Because usually, if you have money, that’s unfortunately, just like, inherently credibility. But you know, the same thing with us 2018. What are you going to do? Like, what what are your Facebook ads going to do? For $2,000 a month, he’s running for president, you need to go from? Yeah, I used to do the math, like we had to, we had to like 100,000x, you know, ads, like paid ads are generally a linear growth, you’re not going to find some magical exponential in there. So that’s not your channel. So the last channel that you really have is alternative media. And the challenge is that alternative media is saturated. Like it’s alternative. But Gary Vaynerchuk has basically been screaming for long enough that alternative media is the way that even new media just gets blown up immediately. I mean, I think the best example of this is clubhouse, whatever, it became hype, you know, in March or whatever. I mean, that thing in like, two weeks just became a self promotional hellhole. I mean, you couldn’t get on there without someone sounding like, you know, they were, you know, on SNL. I mean, it was like, Are you serious? I mean, you get into a clubhouse, and they’re white. I mean, it was just self promotion, everywhere. And then everyone hated it immediately. And now they’re, you know, their users are down. 90%. So I tell people like me and alternative media, it’s just the hardest or marketing right now. It’s harder than ever. If I were to be like launching a venture, um, you still have to do alternative media. That’s your best shot. Like even podcasts. I mean, you have to have some sort of credibility to even get on anything. I mean, like you’re not getting on Sam Harris, without Andrew Yang writing a whole book published by a top four publishing house, you know, you’re not getting so it’s like, jeez, like, even that’s tough. Even I’m on here, because I built you know, something. So it’s like, yeah, yeah. Even podcasts, pretty high wall. And so, uh, yeah, if I were launching, I mean, I’d be on like, tick tock. I’d be exploiting growth and stuff like that. But I think depending on your business, you could even try like, older things like, like my girlfriend’s launching a business or has been working on a business. And I’ve even told her to do like flyers, like she’s doing it sort of like a spiritual therapy sort of thing. And she lives in Mexico. And Playa Del Carmen if anyone knows that, it’s right next to loom, very hip place, very transient. And so I said, honestly, like, go put up flyers and like yoga studios. And she did that and she’s had like, moderate success. I mean, very low cost, you know, really targeted. So


Scott D Clary  1:04:54

very different than when people are very different than being you know what people are used to when they’re going Assuming content and being inundated on social and whatnot.


Andrew Frawley  1:05:02

Yeah, I mean, I, you know, I that the, the whole point of marketing is to stand out effectively, well, the whole point of marketing is to sell your product. But really what how you do that is to just sort of like stand out in some sort of way. And sometimes that’s just, you know, going back through the whole cycle of things that sell and like maybe it’s, I’m doing a traditional method and a different way. But if everyone’s doing something like you should probably still be there, like she’s on tick tock has great success on tick tock, but you know, it’s like, it’s not a zero sum game with marketing. It’s actually just, it’s infinite. You could do it all and just burn all of your life balance, just have no life, just do marketing all day long. It’s a joke. I wouldn’t encourage that. But


Scott D Clary  1:05:52

but you can, you can definitely, I think that the most important takeaway is like, if you are trying alternative media, like you have to test to figure out like, what works, what doesn’t and then double down on what’s worked. Oh, yeah. And just exploit that medium as much as possible. Yeah.


Andrew Frawley  1:06:03

Without a doubt, the testing is, like, all marketing principles that anyone’s read about, like, you know, those are bundled into this recommendation. As a default.


Scott D Clary  1:06:17

Are you good? Okay. All right, I want to ask some some rapid fire to pull out some insights from your career. But before before I pivot, before I go into a rapid fire, anything else that you wanted to touch on? To close off the the Andrew Yang saga or your life saga before we before we keep going?


Andrew Frawley  1:06:38

Um, no, I mean, I think just her thunder, have you heard that? Um, I, you know, I think it’s just like one of the things right, where I look back at my sort of gaming experience, and I always do feel like it’s semi magical. You know, I get denied from his organization. And then I’m like, you know, fuck that. I’m going to San Francisco. And then, you know, the Gary Vaynerchuk thing, somehow pulls me back into it, by this like, random act of selflessness. It’s serendipity. Yeah. I mean, there’s something magical there. I mean, if you’ve listened to this, like, I think there’s some sort of lessons about, you know, obviously, just, you know, the, the whole idea of not giving up just just being crazy and going for it. I think, culture now really rewards and encourages that I think more young people are just doing wild stuff, you know, going across the country and just shooting their shot. That’s definitely the way to do it. I mean, surround yourself with people and just shoot your shot and just go after it and learn and make it work. Where, where, if,


Scott D Clary  1:07:54

before I do rapid fire, Where would people reach out to you if they want to connect with you?


Andrew Frawley  1:07:59

Uh, probably, email me. My email is Andrew at Andrew probably calm. My website is Andrew You can I think I have a contact form on there. I obviously have like Instagram, and Twitter and stuff like that. I really just not jiving with social media lately. What’s actually kind of funny is I don’t really like social media that much. I mean, I have journals that I’ve written to myself since 2013. saying like, I actually don’t think social media is going to be a net positive for humanity. I kind of think it’s fun, but I sort of sucks your soul out a little bit. So I actually don’t use haven’t used Twitter in my like the last three months to really plan on using it but I’m on there. You can find me and same with Instagram. If you just search my name. I’m sure I’ll come up.


Scott D Clary  1:08:56

Yeah, no, I don’t I don’t disagree with you. It’s it’s almost like a necessary evil, but for some people, but that’s fair. Okay, so let’s go into some rapid fire. What would be what would be one thing that you would tell your 20 year old self?


Andrew Frawley  1:09:13

Oh, man, uh, stopped partying. That’s one of my many regrets is you know, I sometimes think I’m like, man. I don’t know. There’s just in college. When I was in college, I thought the thing you’re supposed to do is, you know, live it up in party and go crazy, but actually, you will never get that kind of freedom again, unless you gain some sort of like financial freedom or like find a way to like break out of the nine to five. Employ yourself like it’s very possible actually. Like I have more freedom now than I did in college. But for like a lot of people college is like this really, really rare. Kazama freedom and I spent A lot of it partying because I thought I thought that’s what you know, it you’re supposed to do, I guess I don’t know, you know, you’re like 1920. But I look back and like, man, what I would have done to be intellectually curious is to be asking philosophical questions, and to have those resources available met time, where you can go to clubs filled with like your friends like community and you know, people are just like the the core pillar of my life. Like I love co living I think everyone should live in CO living. In college, it’s just this giant, massive co living. I mean, it’s just a jet. That’s why people love college so much. It’s actually not the partying, it’s the people. It’s like, I would actually step away from the party and spend that time in like a club with poetry and philosophy. And those people party too. I mean, it’s not like you’re not gonna party. But I look back, I’m like, wow, it would have just been so amazing to just be asking big questions, thinking deeply. I mean, college was literally inspired by like, Plato’s Academy. So like, I don’t know, think about that.


Scott D Clary  1:11:10

It’s, it’s, it’s got its I was gonna say it’s come a long way, but not in a positive. Not in the origins of that and fallen far.


Andrew Frawley  1:11:21

model that? Yeah, that’s what I would say that, but actually, you said, especially rapid fire, so my bet on that.


Scott D Clary  1:11:29

I don’t care. It’s all good, man. This is your show. It’s your show? Um, what would be what would be one? Or actually sorry, I already asked. What would be the biggest challenge that you’ve had in your, in your personal or professional life? And how did you overcome it?


Andrew Frawley  1:11:44

Oh, man, uh, my biggest challenge was on the campaign that you don’t really get respect for what you’ve done, per se, like, on the campaign, I had a big problem, which was that I joined the campaign when I was 23. And like, super green, in marketing. And this sort of gets to the concept of why it said I wanted to sort of like, you step away, I guess, from working with Yang and that whole network. You know, I entered when I was 23. And just like, think about a 23 year old. And there’s a big bell curve there. Like, you know, personality, but I was like, idealistic, I made easy by careless mistakes. I mean, I had like, a big vision. And obviously, I did fine with our marketing, but like, I made a lot of mistakes, like, I fucked up our scheduling, like, I double booked things, and you sort of get anchored to this identity. And people were like, unconsciously, it’s just how it goes, how the mind works. And so by the end of the campaign, you know, I’m looking on paper, and I’m like, wait a second, I’m, like, crushing a lot of these marketing things. And yet internally on the campaign, I mean, not with everyone, but like, with variety of people. They just were like, Oh, you’re just like this fucking Clews kid. And I’m like, I’m literally raising us, like, 30% of our money. And this market by and like, the merchandise is, what I’m doing in like, my free time, like, what do you what do you say, you know, that look, the met with the getting there, like, Oh, you didn’t make that? And I’m like, so that was like, very frustrating, just sort of getting taken seriously, I guess, when you’re young is maybe the best way to articulate it. Honestly, how did I deal with that? I mean, really, the only remedy, I think, is getting space from the people for a few years. But on the campaign, I read a few books about just professionalism. And I just started being like, extremely professional. Like I came here, people thought I was not prepared. So I started being more prepared than anyone could ever be for everything. I mean, I had ridiculous flowcharts for everything I’m not predicting they’re actually practical. But like, Oh, you want to know about like, the merchandising process. You want to know how the tech team operates? Like, here’s a flowchart. Here’s, here’s where you are. Here’s like, what you do, you know, it actually helped a lot. But, you know, I was still sort of looked at as like, by some people. It’s just like, Yeah, whatever. I said, whatever I described myself as Yeah.


Scott D Clary  1:14:30

That’s annoying. That’s very annoying, and it’s silly, whatever. It is,


Andrew Frawley  1:14:34

like, Do you know what these other campaigns would do? To have me in like one of their meetings? Like, that’s like getting me right now.


Scott D Clary  1:14:42

I love it. I love that man. You gotta you gotta know your worth too. But it’s tough. It’s tough when you’re young, you know? It’s not an easy thing to do, or to feel confident. Okay, one person who’s been highly influential. There’s been many but pick one. Who is that person? What did they teach you?


Andrew Frawley  1:15:01

like a person I knew directly or just like read about


Scott D Clary  1:15:03

it, interpret the question as you want. It’s yours. It’s your question. I’m somebody who’s had an impact on you who can who comes to mind?


Andrew Frawley  1:15:12

Well, I mean, it’s pretty much three people come to mind. I’m not going to go into all of them, but all that we share their names. And they’ve all been talked about already. Which is, I mean, Elon Musk, Steve Jobs and yang. I mean, they’re super cliches. Again, I like to think when I was obsessed with them, it was a little ahead of your head. Not Steve Jobs, and that guy’s Louis passed away. I mean, I’ll probably say that Elon Musk thing. I mean, that guy, like, super inspired me, I mean, I’m not gonna get into his behavior the last few years, that guy’s really just, actually, to be fair, I actually predicted this in 2016, I text my friends, I said, Watch Elon Musk become like, so big that he ends up doing, you know, getting lost in his ego doing stupid things. And a lot of people start hating him. I have a screenshot of that text message. But yeah, college, I mean, I became so inspired by that guy, same with San Francisco era, because, you know, I read his biography, and that dude, just that that guy’s tenacity, or I don’t even know if that’s the right word. He’s such a workhorse. He’s just so for the mission, and just has such a tolerance for grinding it out. And I always thought about that on the campaign. I mean, I thought about that at every phase. I mean, that guy just like never gave up ever just took every punch to face and just kept on going. I mean, on the campaign was often referred to as like, one of the hardest working people on the staff at the whole 300. I mean, I was, I don’t ever want to do it again. But I mean, I was in there, like 14 hours a day, just counting it. I mean, just getting after it. And, you know, I think it had a net impact on our outcome, for sure. But, uh, it was bad for my health. No doubt. So it’s a great inspiration you on?


Scott D Clary  1:17:20

It’s a great interview. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, I think there’s a whole other that’s a whole other conversation about hustle culture. You follow? You fall, if you have any point idolized Gary Vaynerchuk. In his earlier days, I think he has a more wholesome message now. But are you on? There’s a listen, there’s something to be said you work hard, you get shit done. It’s effective, but it’s not sustainable. And there’s other ways to so we


Andrew Frawley  1:17:44

are not about that. Now. My whole I have journals. I mean, I’m really intentional with my life. I always have been and I mean, all over my journals are balanced. I’m all about the balance and well being and true mental health which is, you know, choirs the maturity to maturity and the effort that it takes to allocate time and the the ability to just like stop yourself, interrupt a task and be like, Okay, I finished this. I’ll come back tomorrow. I recognize, you know, life will go on, I don’t finish this next hour.


Scott D Clary  1:18:25

Is it healthy to healthy mindset that, okay, a book or podcast that you’d recommend people to check out? You mentioned Ryan Holiday before you can even go with that one. You can go with any of his work, but I mean, is there something else that’s top of mind for you?


Andrew Frawley  1:18:39

Well, well, well, well. I mean, the Wow. So Wow. The book that I’ve talked about probably the most of my life as a recommendation people is Sapiens by Yuval Noah Harare, that’s definitely not necessarily like a business first book. It doesn’t have to be a business. Yeah, the subtitle is a brief history of humankind. And that just gave me so much context, I read that during my whole existential crisis, it changed the game for me. Because it just really helps you understand the, the big levers that sort of drive society. And, you know, I’m all about, you know, I’m in politics and society. So those are the things that really get me going, you know, how do we shape the world around us and that book will educate you. And the other one, the honorable mention is a book called transcend by Scott Scott Barry Kaufman, which is essentially a science of well being, and it’s like a self help book. It’s super informative, it’s beautiful. It he he took Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, and essentially said this is how real it is based on the science last 70 years, it’s very real. To give us a new analogy makes a little sailboat, it’s just like, the only gives a 13 point spectrum of like, these are literally like, the scientifically like, vetted sources of like, well being. And well being in psychology is like the defined term for just like, just like living a good life like, and it’s, yeah, I mean, I already have a 13 point spectrum, and I review it every week. I like write a number I’m like, yo, how did I do on my vitality? How am I with positive relationships, my mastery, my sense of purpose, you know, growth mindset, if you really focus on those things, I mean, it’s, it’s pretty, pretty transformative.


Scott D Clary  1:20:44

And this is a hopefully not too much of an existential question for you. But I have to ask everybody this what is what does success mean for you?


Andrew Frawley  1:20:51

Freedom is totally freedom, okay? I mean, I have four words that I’m optimizing my life for right now. It’s money impact, freedom, and fuck counties, and every last one, well, get three out of four, money impact in freedom is the last one, whatever, money in fact, freedom. They’re good. They’re good. Any basic and Ally funds. I saw this post interesting, this post recently on Instagram of all places, and someone is basically saying that it’s not money that people want. It’s the lifestyle. And I totally agree. I mean, I spent my summer in Europe. I literally went through like the Amalfi Coast, Tuscany, Italy, Venice, Florence, you know, the French Riviera. It just changed my whole perspective on money. Like there’s that whole region of the world changed my perspective of just, like, just pleasure, I guess. I mean, it was so nice. I just realized, like, wow, like life can actually be really, really pleasant if you could afford it. Not that you know, sitting in the suburbs isn’t a bad time. I mean, I definitely push my my gym here, but um, yeah. Smart,


Scott D Clary  1:22:16

very smart. Okay, man, that’s all I got. That’s that


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